Owen Oliver on visualisation tools and data

Head of Product at StructureFlow, Owen Oliver, discusses the growing interest in using visualisation tools for deal structuring, creating coordinated tech ecosystems and the role of data to enhance transaction management processes for both lawyers and their clients.

Owen Oliver is a corporate lawyer-turned legal technologist. After 10 years’ experience as a transactional lawyer with Fieldfisher and Ingenious Media, Owen co-founded Workshare Transact in 2015, the legal transaction management application now known as Litera Transact that is used by global law firms such as Clifford Chance, Norton Rose Fulbright and Simmons & Simmons.  

In his current role as Head of Product at StructureFlow, Owen leads on the development of the StructureFlow product to help users think, communicate and collaborate more efficiently by visualising transactions and matters with their software.  

In this Transaction Management episode of Shieldcast, Owen and Geoff discuss:  

• Why there is a growing interest in using visualisation tools and their wide range of applications for the legal industry 
• Whether technology innovations should be improving current transaction management processes or rather disrupt with new innovations and working practices 
• Why it is important to knit together new technologies  
• How data and new insights can be used to enhance lawyer and client experience

Listen to this Transaction Management edition of Shieldcast to find out more! 


You can learn more about StructureFlow and the services they provide on their website: https://www.structureflow.co/

Owen contributed to our recent Transaction Management eBook. You can read his insights on how visualisation tools are changing the game for deal planning and structuring by downloading the book here. 

Find other episodes in the series on our website: Shieldcast library

Podcast brought to you by Shieldpay - learn more: shieldpay.com

Transcript

Geoff: On today's show, we welcome Owen Oliver, Head of Product for StructureFlow. Welcome on Owen.

Owen: Hi there. How are you doing? 

Geoff: Owen is another lawyer turned legal technologist; founder of Workshare Transact, which was acquired by Litera Microsystems in 2019 and is today used extensively by international law firms, such as Clifford Chance, Simmons & Simmons, and Norton Rose. 

After this success bringing to market a legaltech platform, he's dived right back in and joined Tim Follett on the StructureFlow team as Head of Product. 

I've had a chance to play with StructureFlow over the last few weeks and it's a really great product. As a transaction lawyer, I would have loved to be able to use that as a tool and I think I have lots of applications in mind for it for today. I think it's the wide raging number of applications and possible extensions for the product that is incredibly fascinating. I urge all listeners to have a look and we'll post some links on that below.

I'm excited to talk to you more about the product, obviously, but more broadly around the topic of this series which is the transaction management lifecycle - something that we're both trying to tackle, or potentially not tackle - we'll talk about that a bit.

Welcome to the show. 

Owen: Well, thank you very much. And thank you for saying those kinds of things about StructureFlow. 

Geoff: To begin with, could give us the 30 second elevator pitch? What is StructureFlow? How did it come about and your role?

Owen: Absolutely. I mean StructureFlow, first and foremost, it's about visualisation. It provides this visual toolkit for lawyers, and really any sort of corporate or transaction professional, and it can be used for a wide range of use cases, but it's particularly strong and it was primarily created for creating corporate and transactional structures.

It's an intelligent solution. What we mean by that is when you're creating your structure within StructureFlow, it understands what you're creating and it sort of builds up this data model of the structure underneath. It recognises that you're adding entities and assets, and it understands the relationships between those different things. Then you can add more information about those entities and assets and you can link documents. 

At one level it's like a PowerPoint replacement tool for structures, so they're taking away a lot of the pain that professionals suffer today when using those tools to do the diagrams that they create today. But it is also more than that. It becomes an interactive interface for information on a deal, for example. It means that it's more of a structuring and modeling tool and it becomes this valuable information resource through the course of a matter or transaction.

Geoff: I liked PowerPoint and I use a number of other visualisation tools already, but it is really great. How are you seeing it being adopted at the moment? Who’s using it? What type of firms, what types of teams and how well is it being used?

Owen: We have a really great customer base already. The one I can mention is Slaughter & May - we had a really good press release last week with them. It started out within their corporate and tax teams but it's now being rolled out to anybody across the firm that wants to use it.

And I think that demonstrates the breadth of usage for the tool. There is a focus on structures and transactions, but it can be used in litigation. You can use it for flow charts, you can use it for timelines, if you're drafting a complex clause in a commercial agreement then you can use it to create visualisation of that. So, yeah, it really is very wide. And we've actually created this really nice marketing document recently about the use cases with about 30 different slides of examples of diagrams and structures that lawyers and other professionals are creating.

I think there's a need for visualisation and it's growing. What we're providing is this really nice, straightforward tool where a lawyer who's not used to, you know…you said that you're good at PowerPoint and some lawyers very much are, but others are terrible at it and really struggle with it.

I think this is something that everybody can use just to get their thoughts. It helps them think, it helps them get stuff down on paper. So, whether it's a massive, corporate structure or whether it's white boarding an idea that they've just chatted to their clients about, it's something that anybody can just pick up and use.

Geoff: And I guess there's the sharing and collaboration options. Are you finding in the usage of it that the stakeholders of transactions, or in the matter or the case or whatever it is, are interacting on the platform and helping each other, moving things around and engaging in that visualisation exercise?

Owen: Our goal is to make StructureFlow this collaborative platform where people from all different organisations involved on a matter or transaction can come in and get that view of the transaction - not just the visual but all the underlying information and data that they need to understand.

As a typical user, you go through this journey where you pick up the tool, you recognise it as a replacement for PowerPoint maybe, creating that structure that you did, and maybe your image goes into a due diligence report or it goes into steps plans. But then, as you get more familiar with the tool, you get confident and you can start inviting your client to get that first-hand view of the project within Structure Flow and then it progresses out from there.  

But that's our goal, it’s to create this collaborative environment for deal structuring and for engaging people to understand how a transaction is going to work.

Geoff: There are so many tools that law firms and lawyers use at the moment and that number is increasing. Obviously, it is just a very useful thing to have, but everyone's always effectively looking for a return. So, what are firms going to gain from an efficiency point of view? Is that what lawyers are looking for when in your sales process or is something else the driver behind the adoption of the solution?

Owen: I think there's a few different things there. From an outreach perspective, it's quite easy for us because you speak to a partner and if they're a partner that has problems or can see problems within their team with the creation of diagrams, it's quite an easy sell as it is much more efficient for creating structures. So that sort of aspect is there. 

But it's also quite fun to use. You said at the start it's something different from your regular toolkit. Most lawyers are working in Word all the time and this is something a little bit different and, as I say, it helps them think. All of those sorts of bonus points are there. 

I think for an innovation team in a law firm, there's this massive advantage around the adoptability of it.  There’s this first level use case for it because it really is something that anybody can pick up, it's very easy, it doesn't involve lots of different people and it doesn't involve a massive behaviour change. So, it's a really attractive proposition to get almost a quick win within the innovation team.

I think from where I was coming from with Transact, that was much more of a process of education and behaviour change to get a whole team to move over to working in a slightly different way of being and acting. You at least need the buy in from an entire team working on a transaction internally to make that work. But with StructureFlow, anybody that wants to create a diagram in that context or in that setting can just pick it up and use it.

Geoff: Yeah, interesting. One of the things that came into my mind when I was playing around with it was that right now StructureFlow is very much a visualisation tool and kind of a due diligence planning/communication tool. But I guess for me, the concept of this series is about the transaction management and I can see you creeping into other parts of that. I see the transaction lifecycle is in three parts: there's the plan, build, and complete processes. Is that something that you guys have considered or is that something that you're thinking of? 

Owen: Yeah, I think if you're putting a tool to go into that sort of process, you have to look at the process as a whole and see where it's going to fit in. I think there's two real areas where StructureFlow can help in that process. First of all, structuring. It’s a combination of people will create visualisations today of structures to help them understand it. And what we're adding into that is the information and data elements so that you can get a really much deeper understanding of it and a deeper resource for the information on that matter.

We feel that combination is really powerful in terms of deal structuring. We can help resolve issues and flag issues around structuring, such as conflict, KYC, ultimate beneficial ownership and where change of control is needed.

Those sorts of things, we believe, as we build out the product, will be possible to demonstrate within a StructureFlow project. We think that will be of immense value as a structuring and modelling tool at that stage of the transaction.

So that's obviously a real focus for us, but there are other problems within transactional work where we can maybe help. I think one of those issues that we see is the fragmentation of information. When you're working on a transaction, the key information that you need to do any particular task tends to be fragmented across different documents, across different organizations. We are seeing StructureFlow helping there as it can come in as a resource for that information. It comes in at the start of the process and it can be that nice interactive resource of that information through the course of the transaction and benefit in that way.

We feel that StructureFlow is primarily a tool about visualisation that you can use in lots of different ways, but I think there are specific things about it that will really help through the transaction lifecycle as a whole.   

Geoff: I think it's really interesting is that there are a number of solutions, and this is your second business, basically looking at that transaction management piece. It's kind of been the forgotten child of legal technology to a certain extent. But there's clearly a large charge towards this piece at the moment or generally. Like Clio, just last week announcing that their huge $1 billion dollar or over $1.6 billion valuation or whatever it was.

Are we all just creating these transaction management solutions but they are just tools to help facilitate old processes, not really changing the actual way that the thing is done? Because ultimately, we're just putting plasters on maybe poor processes rather than actually changing the way it should be.

Owen: Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question. As you say, there are lots of different transaction tech tools coming out, but I think the key thing is that they're all going to have to knit together. It’s quite easy to pick one part of that process and find a solution for it that is based on an existing process but as to whether all of those tools are going to knit together well and produce something end to end, that's really going to benefit to make it overall a nice, conjoint experience for both the lawyers working on the transactions, but also the client, who knows?

I think StructureFlow has the opportunity to be a little bit disruptive in some of those areas just because of the nature of it, the fact that it's building a plot of data around the transaction.

I think it's really interesting space at the moment and it's a really good question to ask. It's how do we, as a collection of vendors, do we really offer something that's taking things forward and not just providing a standalone resolution to an existing issue but how can we get together and think about the whole process globally and producing good solutions? 

Geoff: I guess that's where the larger conglomerates come together and do that, right? Like how you were acquired in your previous business. Do you think that ultimately there are only X number of law firms and the procurement process in law firms.. It's a very sticky industry to get into, but that's the space for these innovations to come into. If these larger players have…there's maybe four or five now that take up quite a lot of that space already… for other people to come in with those innovative solutions, or is it that market will get shut down because of that saturation?

Owen: Yeah, I think there's always going to be room for something new and clever. Obviously, there's a lot of acquisition activity at the moment, but I think the actual challenge of putting tools together to make a coherent workflow is the same. There's a lot of work to be done to join up all the tools either within an organisation or, outside of an organisation.

Geoff: No, I totally agree that those processes can be knit together very neatly, irrespective whether you're one organisation or not. I think it's that interoperability of data that is a really important piece and an openness to data and standards, et cetera. I think is going to be where a lot of tech companies, particularly in this space, will need to evolve towards.  

In terms of going back to some of the bits around the transaction lifecycle and where we think things might go, have you identified areas that you think are still open and that people haven't really yet found solutions for? 

We've got the tools to manage the transaction through it - E-signings are more broadly being adopted - but what's the next bit of that process that really is right for some analysis or some tech influence?

Owen: Well one of the things that I hear from customers a lot is about the sort of delivery of structured data at the end of a transaction. There are lots of attempts to give the business what it needs and that context but I'm not sure that anything has really got hold of that and is producing really good delivery of that. 

Obviously, what I mean by that is that if a bank is doing a hundred loan deals of a certain type every year, they are getting really deep data coming off the documentation. That needs to go into management systems at the end of the transaction [and be used going forward].

So, I think that's an area where again, you've got lots of different transaction tools and all using similar data, producing data through the documentation and through the different systems. It's like, how can we turn that into really usable data so when you deliver the transaction to the client, you deliver a Bible. But how do you deliver that quality data to the clients at the end of it? And I think that's really a tool that StructureFlow can have an influence over the course of time. 

Geoff: I think that's actually a really interesting point because being where you are as a provider in that space is that you're going to see so many different structure types. Much like a contract automation platform, and certain others, you see all the differences that people are making, and you can kind of get to a determination of what market is in a way that is far more accurate than potentially a law firm or a lawyer’s own experience. 

So, then you're starting to have an ability to give insights on the transaction at each stage that are far different. Before, you needed it to be a 20 year veteran partner to have absolutely seen enough deals to be able to tell a client whether something is market or not, but today it's very different.

Owen: I think, it's almost a secondary thing coming out with transaction technology - the first thing is like, let's get this done and let's get it done efficiently, but all this information and data that's coming out is really valuable to the client and it's really valuable for the law firm as well for their own knowledge purposes.  

As we move forward with our own roadmap, that's something that we’ll really be considering, and it's a really key thing to consider for transaction management and how you can make the most of the activity that's going on through your platform. How do you make the most of that for the future? 

Geoff: And actually, thinking about it, it's probably an area that law firms ought to be concentrating on because the problem is that a client goes to a law firm and says, “I don't care how you do it, just go and get the deal done”, and then they’ll walk away once the deal’s done. And, you know, that's the relationship ended. 

How do law firms then continue adding value, post the deal and do so cost-effectively? These are the types of insights in areas where law firms could come in and be quite useful for the client. Because they're getting squeezed on fees at the beginning, maybe they just need to figure out how to get fees for a longer period of time. 

Owen: Absolutely. So, we like that with StructureFlow you build up a period of usage within it and all that data and information is there. And maybe something then happens to it, there's a new regulation in Singapore relating to entities there, and then you can cross check all the projects that you've worked on that have involved Singapore and cities and with a quick query you can see if that particular issue affects structures that you built up in the past few years.

I think it's just the power in that information and data coming through, and how you make the most of it.

Geoff: For you guys, how many of you are there? What are the plans for StructureFlow? You know, the Slaughter & May relationship is really exciting, but have you got to an internationalisation point of view? Have you got firms in other countries using you now, or just purely UK firms? 

Owen: We do have firms in APAC, in North America and we're close to Africa. So, we're doing really well from a sort of global perspective. It's just a really exciting time for the company. Tim Follett has done an absolutely brilliant job, to get to where we are, we have a really good quality team of people, and we're just keeping going with listening to customers and working through our product roadmap as best we can to start producing the value that we really know that this product is capable of doing.

Geoff: The listen to the customers piece on something that is so complex. I'm talking to you with your Head of Product hat on now, how'd you manage that process? Obviously, the adoption of the tool is good, but people, I guess, take a bit of time to get used to it. How did they respond to it? So many features must be hidden to them. And how do you deal with that kind of that process and how do you get that feedback? 

Owen: Well, I think we've got a really excellent customer facing team for starters. They're just really excellent in speaking to the customers and harvesting all of that feedback. There's, obviously loads of feedback on the usability of the canvas functionality and that they wanted to do this and that, and that's really fantastic and we're working through a lot of that.

A team or two will pick up on the data aspects and how it will apply to that particular use cases and then we'll end up in conversation talking about that. I think really when you talk about deal structuring, it is really important for me and my role to find out what types of things people want to know on their deal types. What are the key things that are going to really make a difference for them to know, and for their clients to know, and how would they like that to be displayed visually? And, what's the purpose of knowing that information?

So those conversations are really interesting for us at the moment for setting us up for creating those functionalities that will really, really help with deal structuring activities. It's a complex product and it's a big product and so there are lots of different areas of feedback coming in. So, we do have a really good customer team that helps me work through that feedback and focus on what's important for us to look at. 

Geoff: So, what I like to ask people coming towards the end of our discussion really is, out of all of those experiences that you've had, what has been the most defining or most influential piece that's taught you the most and brought you to today, sitting in front of me. 

Owen: Wow, that's a big question. I always think back to the early days in the Transact experience.  I think when you move across from being a lawyer into technology, there's a lot to learn. You sort of learn how to become a top tech technology professional.

Those first two or three years within Workshare and working with some of these big customers that you mentioned before, that was a real learning curve as to how you build a technology product and not just create what you think in your mind - it should be from a lawyer’s perspective and from your own experience. So that was a formation experience. I think that put me in a really good position now with StructureFlow, to be able to build this product that's not for me and it's not for Tim Follett, it's for the community. That learning process within Workshare has helped me become somebody that understands how that's going to work and how to create that product that is fit for purpose for a wide group of people, and really do the job in the fields that we want to do a good job.

Geoff: Well, that's a lovely way of answering that question. It's been a really enjoyable conversation, thank you so much. We’ve talked about a huge number of interesting aspects around the structure for a product and what it can do but also, your insights as well. It's dealing with that data in a way that hasn’t been done before. I look forward to seeing how that's used and how that might progress within the StructureFlow product and maybe ours as well.

 So, thank you very much for your time today. I look forward to speaking with you soon again. 

Owen: Great stuff. Thank you. Really enjoyed it. Thanks Geoff.